Curse

JDRyder · Mar 18, 2008, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You should look at the available profession Insignia.

who uses prof insignias? survivor > all

draxynnic · Mar 18, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I actually find my mesemer better for PVE for H/H way then my elly. Firstly I can be the interupter so that frees a slot for AI damage rather then AI interupt. Yes AI is godly at Interupt, but I would rather make sure I interupt an elly bosses Fireball and not his attunement which I can just drain, rather then have a hero waste an interupt on the attunement.

Secondly, when fighting High level mobs particularly on HM like destroyers (Not got there yet on my mes though) Ellys hit for around 20 damage with their most powerful spells, whereas mesmers will still be dealing 70+ armor ignoring AoE.

If you want Godly and easy energy management, [skill]energy drain[/skill] and [skill]energy tap[/skill] are highly underated. I put them on a hero mes which has Clumsiness / Wandering Eye / Sig of Clumsiness / Arcane Conundrum and Confusing Images while I do the interupting. Screenie here:
{snip}
After I get MoW I'll add an SS and keep Melonni on Mystic Twister / Enchants.

Interesting. Seems my previous attempt to reply to this imploded. Annoying, because it took a while to write out.

First, I agree with upier regarding GOLE. As long as you use 10 energy skills with it, even at 0 Energy Storage it comes out ahead of Energy Drain at all but the highest levels of Inspiration - and ahead of Energy Tap at all reasonable levels of Inspiration. Furthermore, it isn't elite, isn't as prone to being interrupted as Tap, and isn't as prone to the target dying (or, however rarely in PvE, using up their energy) before the spell completes. Out of natural Mesmer energy management, Mantra of Recall competes, but is also elite and doesn't always provide energy when you actually need it.

Second, comparing damage with Elementalists against Destroyers isn't really fair. Destroyers are practically designed to go up against Elementalists, especially fire Elementalists. Even then, however, the Elementalist has physical attacker shutdown that the Mesmer can be jealous of - Air and Earth can both spread Weakness and Blind around quite effectively (possibly with some help from Epidemic... which is unlinked and thus easy to take a secondary for) while Earth and Fire can cause area knockdowns. Keeping a melee mob Blind and Weakened beats Clumsiness spam for melee shutdown in my book.

With interrupts - the AI may not be so good at distinguishing what to interrupt, but they are also less likely to miss an interrupt altogether (Disclaimer: Chance of human player missing an interrupt is dependent on reflex time, ping speed, and anticipation ability). However, the AI does make a quite effective ranger dazebot - it doesn't really matter if the AI hits the attunement rather than the fireball, since if the target is Dazed, that fireball probably isn't going to go off anyway. And, as above, Epidemic can be used to spread the joy.

All that said, your builds do look decent - I might try them out some time with some modifications. However, your build is quite conditional, especially when it comes to dealing AoE damage. CoF relies on being able to interrupt something. Mistrust will do absolutely nothing if the mobs lack offensive spellcasters. Energy Surge and CoP are less likely to fail, but there is the chance, however small, of the mob using all its energy or removing the feeder hex(es) beforehand. Furthermore, your energy management is entirely dependent on the mob containing spellcasters of some kind.

Regarding Mirror of Delusions: Tie it to Fast Casting to keep it Mesmer-only. Possibly even raise the threshold for no chance of failure to 7. Make it elite, because it is. Reduce the area from nearby to adjacent.

Then follow up with Wandering Eye, and watch melee mobs explode...

bhavv · Mar 18, 2008, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Just about every mob in PVE has a caster so mistrust works fine for me. With high FC you can also sneak it onto a foe while they are casting.

As for the energy drain bar, it keeps Gwen spamming clumsiness and wandering eye without running out of energy, but I agree that Gole and mantra of recall could work better so I will try them. I disfavour ineptitude now because its recharge is far too long for a single foe skill in PVE, and clumsiness + wandering eye do a better job for damage, so I wanted a build that was sufficient enough with e management to constantly keep casting them without running out of energy.

Also the AI doesnt prioritise using Gole with 10e spells, as I have seen on my monks who like to cast gole then RoF or something similar with 5e. So maybe waste not want not + mantra of recall could work too.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 18, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

who uses prof insignias?

Paragons.

Centurion's Insignia = practically constant +10 AL = win.

JDRyder · Mar 18, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Interesting. Seems my previous attempt to reply to this imploded. Annoying, because it took a while to write out.

First, I agree with upier regarding GOLE. As long as you use 10 energy skills with it, even at 0 Energy Storage it comes out ahead of Energy Drain at all but the highest levels of Inspiration - and ahead of Energy Tap at all reasonable levels of Inspiration. Furthermore, it isn't elite, isn't as prone to being interrupted as Tap, and isn't as prone to the target dying (or, however rarely in PvE, using up their energy) before the spell completes. Out of natural Mesmer energy management, Mantra of Recall competes, but is also elite and doesn't always provide energy when you actually need it.

Second, comparing damage with Elementalists against Destroyers isn't really fair. Destroyers are practically designed to go up against Elementalists, especially fire Elementalists. Even then, however, the Elementalist has physical attacker shutdown that the Mesmer can be jealous of - Air and Earth can both spread Weakness and Blind around quite effectively (possibly with some help from Epidemic... which is unlinked and thus easy to take a secondary for) while Earth and Fire can cause area knockdowns. Keeping a melee mob Blind and Weakened beats Clumsiness spam for melee shutdown in my book.

With interrupts - the AI may not be so good at distinguishing what to interrupt, but they are also less likely to miss an interrupt altogether (Disclaimer: Chance of human player missing an interrupt is dependent on reflex time, ping speed, and anticipation ability). However, the AI does make a quite effective ranger dazebot - it doesn't really matter if the AI hits the attunement rather than the fireball, since if the target is Dazed, that fireball probably isn't going to go off anyway. And, as above, Epidemic can be used to spread the joy.

All that said, your builds do look decent - I might try them out some time with some modifications. However, your build is quite conditional, especially when it comes to dealing AoE damage. CoF relies on being able to interrupt something. Mistrust will do absolutely nothing if the mobs lack offensive spellcasters. Energy Surge and CoP are less likely to fail, but there is the chance, however small, of the mob using all its energy or removing the feeder hex(es) beforehand. Furthermore, your energy management is entirely dependent on the mob containing spellcasters of some kind.

Regarding Mirror of Delusions: Tie it to Fast Casting to keep it Mesmer-only. Possibly even raise the threshold for no chance of failure to 7. Make it elite, because it is. Reduce the area from nearby to adjacent.

Then follow up with Wandering Eye, and watch melee mobs explode...

GoLE is nice but you have to be a Me/E. imo fast casting+res chant=gg
back on topic, when do you need energy with a mesmer?

"your build is quite conditional, especially when it comes to dealing AoE damage" is he playing a mesmer or ele? you dont need aoe damage on a mesmer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Paragons.

Centurion's Insignia = practically constant +10 AL = win.

any of the other 60 armor targets use them?

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 18, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

any of the other 60 armor targets use them?

Ghost Forge. Use it all the time on my Ritualist.

JDRyder · Mar 18, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Ghost Forge. Use it all the time on my Ritualist.

other then for rit spike i use survivor for rits as well

DarkSpirit · Mar 18, 2008, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

who uses prof insignias? survivor > all

More HP is good for some situations but +armor is more effective against continuous attacks that are not armor-ignoring. And yes, many classes do use prof insignias, like Dervish = windwalker, Centurion for Paragons, Sab recommends Tormentors for his 3-necro build, and so on.

Usually people put +armor insignia for the body and legging (the 2 places where you are hit the most) but leave the rest for Survivor.

draxynnic · Mar 18, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

GoLE is nice but you have to be a Me/E. imo fast casting+res chant=gg
back on topic, when do you need energy with a mesmer?

It's been a while since I've played a Mesmer properly, but the last time I did, I needed energy management. 'Course, that was when Clumsiness and Wandering Eye had shorter recharges.

Bottom line is that bhaav's Gwen apparently needs energy management, so I'm suggesting a better form. That character also isn't carrying a hard res - that might certainly be another suggestion for improvement, or bhavv might have a reason to be using the sig rather than a hard res.

Still, in PvE, isn't choosing a secondary specifically for a hard res when another secondary might make your build more efficient being just a leetle pessimistic? (Remember, everyone: This is PvE thread!)

On bhavv's point about the AI not selectively using GOLE for 10e skills: The build in question only has one of them (Confusing Images). Even if Gwen does get things confused (pun not intended) occasionally, she probably still comes out ahead in the long run with GOLE.

Quote:

"your build is quite conditional, especially when it comes to dealing AoE damage" is he playing a mesmer or ele? you dont need aoe damage on a mesmer

Looking at the build, and bhavv's comments regarding being able to dish out more armour-ignoring damage than an Ele can dish out after armour, it appears that bhavv's character is basically looking to perform armour-ignoring nuking with a couple of interrupts thrown in so she can stop anything nasty that she sees being cast.

(Note careful arrangement so that it's Gwen and/or the character who is the she in question so I'm not having to guess bhavv's actual gender...

)

upier · Mar 18, 2008, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You should look at the available profession Insignia.

Mesmers:

Prodigy - If you have more recharging skills, you have more armor. Having more recharging skills is a TERRIBLE thing for a caster. What a way to encourage a poor skill bar!
Virtuoso - Armor (+15 while activating skills). So does that mean primary mesmers should not invest in fast casting and deny the advantages of their primary attribute?
Artificer - Only half-decent mesmer insignia. But demands a specific build type.

Elementalist have at least a +10 armor to ALL elemental damage for 4/5 of their Insignia, plus a more specific elemental armor. Even Ritualist Insignia makes more sense for their skills. Necros have DOUBLE the insignia choices of mesmers and they make sense for their skills.

True.
The thing is that I don't see that being such an issue to the extent of people being excluded from parties because of it. We are living in game with Save Yourself & There is nothing to fear. We are also living in a game where a person can keep aggro. And in a game where Protective Spirit rules PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Thus, they are more favorable in PvE.

Of course. But then the question is - do we want a balanced fix or do we want an Ursan tied to fast casting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Which is another way to say the class is broken for PvE.

That would imply that it's the mesmer that needs fixing. Personally I am quite pleased with the way mesmer works. The class has the most fun skills I have ever ran into in a game - well next to the ritualist. What I am not pleased with is the fact that the class that relies so heavily on balance - or better yet the basic game rules - is getting screwed because A.Net is leaving out those rules OR breaking them in PvE.
That's why I feel that PvE is broken rather then the class - and that's why I'd rather see PvE getting some help then the class. Because in the current PvE - everything the class can hope for (and pretty much got) is chaos nuking.

JDRyder · Mar 18, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

long quote

"It's been a while since I've played a Mesmer properly, but the last time I did, I needed energy management. 'Course, that was when Clumsiness and Wandering Eye had shorter recharges."

Power Drain is the only "energy managment" skill i use, if you want to to call it that. if you add Drain Enchantment in, you dont really need any more then that, as long as your doing you job, you have energy. using the 2 "or just 1" will not take up a slot just for energy manament. the only mesmer build i can think of where you may need GoLE is a panic build

"Bottom line is that bhaav's Gwen apparently needs energy management, so I'm suggesting a better form. That character also isn't carrying a hard res - that might certainly be another suggestion for improvement, or bhavv might have a reason to be using the sig rather than a hard res"

i like sigs myself but not on mesmers, i like to take use that fast casting for the hard rez but thats just me. with sigs they are up and rdy to fight faster then a hard rez

"On bhavv's point about the AI not selectively using GOLE for 10e skills: The build in question only has one of them (Confusing Images). Even if Gwen does get things confused (pun not intended) occasionally, she probably still comes out ahead in the long run with GOLE."

i still think Etap will do a better job cause of the IA, ive tryed GoLE on a lot of heros but i dont think that use it right. Its hard for gwen not to use it right but, the IA seems to not always use it. ive seen my heros needing energy and other then using GoLE they just keep casting. with Etap they will spaming it cause its what the IA wants them to do. on a player GoLE maybe better but IA cant use it right yet

"Looking at the build, and bhavv's comments regarding being able to dish out more armour-ignoring damage than an Ele can dish out after armour, it appears that bhavv's character is basically looking to perform armour-ignoring nuking with a couple of interrupts thrown in so she can stop anything nasty that she sees being cast."

yea mesmers can, most a mesmers damage bypasses armor. the only skill a ele can use "that i can think of atm" is Obsidian Flame, but eles are still the kings/queens of AoE. mesmers were not made to do aoe damage "even tho they can" things like hex eater vortex/shatter hex are still nice "a fast 86-114 damage to all near is always good" if used in the right area can be very powerful. Let me point this out, a mesmers aoe is just as "if not less" conditional as the triple chop builds that every 1 likes so much. if your blinded or have melee hexes on you, then you cant do any aoe "or you will kill yourself if you have SV or SS" at least with the mesmer for the Aoe to work they have to be casting/doing something, if they are not thats a good thing. I do not think a AoE mesmer is the right way to go, not saying it cant be done or dont do it, but eles do better AoE and a eles aoe next to any thing the non eles AoE will be/seem more conditional

Shuuda · Mar 18, 2008, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

who uses prof insignias? survivor > all

....Stonefist....

DarkSpirit · Mar 18, 2008, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

True.
The thing is that I don't see that being such an issue to the extent of people being excluded from parties because of it. We are living in game with Save Yourself & There is nothing to fear. We are also living in a game where a person can keep aggro. And in a game where Protective Spirit rules PvE.

Yeah but it is annoying to know that mesmers are also gimped when it comes to insignia.

Quote:

That would imply that it's the mesmer that needs fixing. Personally I am quite pleased with the way mesmer works. The class has the most fun skills I have ever ran into in a game - well next to the ritualist. What I am not pleased with is the fact that the class that relies so heavily on balance - or better yet the basic game rules - is getting screwed because A.Net is leaving out those rules OR breaking them in PvE.
That's why I feel that PvE is broken rather then the class - and that's why I'd rather see PvE getting some help then the class. Because in the current PvE - everything the class can hope for (and pretty much got) is chaos nuking.

Turning PvE upside down for the mesmer at this stage is not realistic. Furthermore other classes would probably complain that they are not as effective anymore compared to the past.

It is simply more realistic to "quick fix" the mesmer right now, to balance the PvE scene between mesmers and the other classes. You dont have to use the new skill(s) if you dont want to.

JDRyder · Mar 18, 2008, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

....Stonefist....

you only use 1 of them for your armor as a war, does not have to do with the 60 armor targets we are talking about

JDRyder · Mar 18, 2008, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Yeah but it is annoying to know that mesmers are also gimped when it comes to insignia.

Turning PvE upside down for the mesmer at this stage is not realistic. Furthermore other classes would probably complain that they are not as effective anymore compared to the past.

It is simply more realistic to "quick fix" the mesmer right now, to balance the PvE scene between mesmers and the other classes. You dont have to use the new skill(s) if you dont want to.

IMHO it its not pve, and its not mesmers, its a mata tactic people use in pve, the mata tactic being, get 6 ppl that do damage and go.

heres part of a Pve guide im making

Ive seen a lot of people that seem to say "it does not do damage dont take it" but if you have 6 people all doing the same thing, your skills effectiveness will drop. Paint this in your mind, your in a team with 2 Warriors, 4 Fire Elementalist and 2 Monks. Then you agro a group of mobs. You may have a lot of damage but the 4 Elementalist using all that AoE is not only over kill but the effectiveness of the skills go down, if you had 2 Elementalist using AoE, the effectiveness will go up 4 times as much. This is because even if it is more damage most the damage is not even used cause things die faster the the skills Aoe skill lasts, and effectiveness drops. Look at it this way, if you went to ascalon as a Elementalist, do you want a lot of high energy/damage skills or do you want something like flare?

its not Anet, its not mesmer, its us

upier · Mar 18, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

IMHO it its not pve, and its not mesmers, its a mata tactic people use in pve, the mata tactic being, get 6 ppl that do damage and go.

...snip...

its not Anet, its not mesmer, its us

Yeah, it's the players that are giving the foes additional e-regen, hex resistance or double casting speed.
Stop that, you guys!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Turning PvE upside down for the mesmer at this stage is not realistic. Furthermore other classes would probably complain that they are not as effective anymore compared to the past.

It is simply more realistic to "quick fix" the mesmer right now, to balance the PvE scene between mesmers and the other classes. You dont have to use the new skill(s) if you dont want to.

Khmm - no change is realistic at this point.
GW2 is coming out.
We're just bitching because we are bored.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 18, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Will Mesmers even be in Gw2 as an individual class?

Shuuda · Mar 18, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Will Mesmers even be in Gw2 as an individual class?

Logically, yes, because Mesmer have been proven to be a well balanced profession, (unlike non core professions that could be done away with for the better)

Aslong as GW2 has well made PvP, and the core professions having the same jobs as they have now, Mesmers should have a good place. Which is a great fear, that A-net will bow to PvE and Mesmer won't have a place, or even worse, A-net "Makes Mesmers better in PvE"...

Kattar · Mar 18, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Will Mesmers even be in Gw2 as an individual class?

No one knows. There has been talk of merging some classes though. Things are going to be reworked overall, so we'll just have to wait and see.

DarkSpirit · Mar 18, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Logically, yes, because Mesmer have been proven to be a well balanced profession, (unlike non core professions that could be done away with for the better)

Aslong as GW2 has well made PvP, and the core professions having the same jobs as they have now, Mesmers should have a good place. Which is a great fear, that A-net will bow to PvE and Mesmer won't have a place, or even worse, A-net "Makes Mesmers better in PvE"...

Just balance it in the form of new mesmer PvE skills and PvP would be left untouched. Problem solved!